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Michael D. F. Sørensen
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Indmeldt: 03. nov 2004
Indlæg: 4078
Geografisk sted: Tilst

IndlægSkrevet: Søn aug 13, 2006 14:16    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Prøv at se mine tre partier i denne turnering:

http://www.eskak.dk/short_game.php?show_old_turn=611&tonbr=5#oldt

http://www.eskak.dk/parti_online.php?gid=18939
http://www.eskak.dk/parti_online.php?gid=18942
http://www.eskak.dk/parti_online.php?gid=18944

I alle tre partier spillede modstanderen bevidst på tiden i for dem ellers klart tabte stillinger...

I det sidste parti oplevede jeg endda, at modstanderen for stort set hvert eneste træk tilbød remis, hvilket hver gang kostede mig koncentration og tid.

Det er forøvrigt også klart i strid med reglerne konstant at tilbyde (§12.6), men desværre registreres remistilbud ikke i systemet (så hermed et forbedringsforslag til dig Brian!).

Personerne i ovennævnte partier er fuldstændigt ligegyldige i denne debat, for de er langt fra de eneste, der gør det, for det jeg gerne vil rejse et spørgsmål om, er, om det er sjovt at vinde et sådant parti på tid?

Jo-jo, tiden er en faktor, men...?!

Jeg ved, at flere og flere gør det, og bliver det almindelig praksis og fuldt ud anerkendt, synes jeg, at vi bevæger os i en retning, jeg ikke bryder mig om, og som jeg synes klart er i modstrid med den ånd, der ellers hersker her i eskak!

En anden spiller sidder konstant og laver invitationer, hvor han konsekvent har hvid i samtlige partier...

Jeg synes ikke, det er det eskak, JEG gerne ser!

I hvilken retning synes DU, at eskak skal bevæge sig, hvad kan vi gøre for at påvirke det i den retning?



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<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/osmaniye-erotik-shop">osmaniye erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/ordu-erotik-shop">ordu erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/nigde-erotik-shop">niğde erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/nevsehir-erotik-shop">nevşehir erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/mus-erotik-shop">muş erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/mardin-erotik-shop">mardin erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/manisa-erotik-shop">manisa erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/malatya-erotik-shop">malatya erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kutahya-erotik-shop">kütahya erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/konya-erotik-shop">konya erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kocaeli-erotik-shop">kocaeli erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kilis-erotik-shop">kilis erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kirsehir-erotik-shop">kırşehir erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kirklareli-erotik-shop">kırklareli erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kirikkale-erotik-shop">kırıkkale erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kayseri-erotik-shop">kayseri erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kastamonu-erotik-shop">kastamonu erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kars-erotik-shop">kars erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/karaman-erotik-shop">karaman erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/karabuk-erotik-shop">karabük erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/kahramanmaras-erotik-shop">kahramanmaraş erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/izmir-erotik-shop">izmir erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/mersin-erotik-shop">mersin erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/icel-erotik-shop">içel erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/isparta-erotik-shop">ısparta erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/igdir-erotik-shop">ığdır erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/hatay-erotik-shop">hatay erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/hakkari-erotik-shop">hakkari erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/gumushane-erotik-shop">gümüşhane erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/giresun-erotik-shop">giresun erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/gaziantep-erotik-shop">gaziantep erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/eskisehir-erotik-shop">eskişehir erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/erzurum-erotik-shop">erzurum erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/erzincan-erotik-shop">erzincan erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/elazig-erotik-shop">elazığ erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/edirne-erotik-shop">edirne erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/duzce-erotik-shop">düzce erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/diyarbakir-erotik-shop">diyarbakır erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/denizli-erotik-shop">denizli erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/corum-erotik-shop">çorum erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/cankiri-erotik-shop">çankırı erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/canakkale-erotik-shop">çanakkale erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/bursa-erotik-shop">bursa erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/burdur-erotik-shop">burdur erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/bolu-erotik-shop">bolu erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/bitlis-erotik-shop">bitlis erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/bingol-erotik-shop">bingöl erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/bilecik-erotik-shop">bilecik erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/bayburt-erotik-shop">bayburt erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/batman-erotik-shop">batman</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/bartin-erotik-shop">bartın erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/balikesir-erotik-shop">balıkesir erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/aydin-erotik-shop">aydın erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/artvin-erotik-shop">artvin erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/ardahan-erotik-shop">ardahan erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/antalya-erotik-shop">antalya erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/ankara-erotik-shop">ankara erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/amasya-erotik-shop">amasya erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/aksaray-erotik-shop">aksaray erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/agri-erotik-shop">ağrı erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/afyonkarahisar-erotik-shop">afyonkarahisar erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/adiyaman-erotik-shop">adıyaman erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/adana-erotik-shop">adana erotik shop</a> |
<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/istanbul-erotik-shop-sex-oyuncaklari-magazasi"> </a> |

<a href="https://www.noktashop.org/50-milyon-dolarlik-erotik-sex-shop-pazari
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IndlægSkrevet: Søn aug 13, 2006 15:39    Emne: Re: Hvad man kan være bekendt...? Besvar, med citat

Michael D. F. Sørensen skrev:
Prøv at se mine tre partier i denne turnering:

http://www.eskak.dk/short_game.php?show_old_turn=611&tonbr=5#oldt

http://www.eskak.dk/parti_online.php?gid=18939
http://www.eskak.dk/parti_online.php?gid=18942
http://www.eskak.dk/parti_online.php?gid=18944

I alle tre partier spillede modstanderen bevidst på tiden i for dem ellers klart tabte stillinger...

I det sidste parti oplevede jeg endda, at modstanderen for stort set hvert eneste træk tilbød remis, hvilket hver gang kostede mig koncentration og tid.

Det er forøvrigt også klart i strid med reglerne konstant at tilbyde (§12.6), men desværre registreres remistilbud ikke i systemet (så hermed et forbedringsforslag til dig Brian!).

Personerne i ovennævnte partier er fuldstændigt ligegyldige i denne debat, for de er langt fra de eneste, der gør det, for det jeg gerne vil rejse et spørgsmål om, er, om det er sjovt at vinde et sådant parti på tid?

Jo-jo, tiden er en faktor, men...?!

Jeg ved, at flere og flere gør det, og bliver det almindelig praksis og fuldt ud anerkendt, synes jeg, at vi bevæger os i en retning, jeg ikke bryder mig om, og som jeg synes klart er i modstrid med den ånd, der ellers hersker her i eskak!

En anden spiller sidder konstant og laver invitationer, hvor han konsekvent har hvid i samtlige partier...

Jeg synes ikke, det er det eskak, JEG gerne ser!

I hvilken retning synes DU, at eskak skal bevæge sig, hvad kan vi gøre for at påvirke det i den retning?


Jeg har ingen problemer med at spille sort i de fleste partier mod den pågældende spiller. Det står mig frit for om jeg vil modtage udfordringen. Jeg har spillet c. 60 partier mod ham og, da jeg selv ofte er for doven til at udfordre vælger jeg oftest at acceptere.

Til gengæld har jeg en enkelt gang smidt en spiller ud af en turnering - for at udtræde indtil han fik sit ønskede startnummer.
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IndlægSkrevet: Søn aug 13, 2006 16:08    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Altså Michael, i det tredje parti har du Sort, og modstanderen har løber og 2 langt fremskudte fribønder imod dit tårn. Måske er det mig, der er dum, men jeg kan altså ikke lige indse, hvordan det skulle kunne være en "klart tabt stilling" for Hvid! Så vidt jeg kan se, er det da snarere særdeles venligt af ham at tilbyde en halv...

Men i øvrigt hæfter jeg mig ved, at det er en lynturnering. I de sidste to lynturneringer i nærskak, jeg har deltaget i ("gigantlyn" i Chess House) har jeg haft meget, meget klare gevinststillinger mod henholdsvis Allan Holst og Daniel Vesterbæk Pedersen, der begge har et par millioner mere i rating end jeg (sådan cirka). Men begge spillede iskoldt videre på tiden og vandt.

Jeg vil godt indrømme, jeg blev sur, især mod Daniel - meget sur!!! Men sådan er betingelserne jo altså bare, og kan man ikke sluge den slags bitre piller, er det efter min mening ikke lynskak, man skal spille!!
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IndlægSkrevet: Søn aug 13, 2006 17:06    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Jeg tabte i starten en masse partier på tid, pga. jeg skulle vænne mig til, at 1 minut faktisk ikke var særlig lang tid her på sitet. Kun én eller to gange blev jeg sur på modstanderen, fordi det var overdrevent spil på tid (svært at definere... må være op til en selv at afgøre), resten af gangene blev jeg bare sur på mig selv.

I lynskak er tiden et utrolig vigtigt element, og kan man ikke finde ud af at administrere den ordentligt, synes jeg ikke man kan brokke sig over det kommer til at koste i sidste ende. Det er jo fx langt fra sikkert man nogensinde ville have fået sin klare gevinststilling, hvis man havde brugt et minut mindre. Hvis man ikke synes det er fair at spille på tiden, så længe det ikke er overdrevet (hvis ens modstander har en noget anderledes definering af dette end en selv, må man jo bare give igen af samme skuffe mod den person), kan man fx nøjes med at spille med tillægstid pr. træk (det foretrækker jeg såmænd selv at gøre - herinde).

Gentagne remistilbud er en anden sag; der skal ikke mange af slagsen til, før jeg anser det for at være direkte chikane.

Til gengæld har jeg intet problem med at en spiller inviterer til partier med en bestemt farve (og det værende den samme hver gang), jeg lader bare være med at acceptere den slags indbydelser, med mindre det er modsat af hvad jeg lige har haft mod en...
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BillyBudd



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IndlægSkrevet: Søn aug 13, 2006 18:16    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Denne side adresserer problemet på bedste måde: www.kinagrill.dk

Man kan altså ikke brokke sig over at modstanderen spiller på tiden i lynskak...
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 9:50    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Lau Bjerno skrev:
Altså Michael, i det tredje parti har du Sort, og modstanderen har løber og 2 langt fremskudte fribønder imod dit tårn. Måske er det mig, der er dum, men jeg kan altså ikke lige indse, hvordan det skulle kunne være en "klart tabt stilling" for Hvid! Så vidt jeg kan se, er det da snarere særdeles venligt af ham at tilbyde en halv...


For det første slår jeg løberen i slutstillingen, han svarer e7, og så spiller jeg Kf7+ mat, men bortset fra det, så, som jeg også tydeligt skrev, tilbød min modstander remis ved stort set hvert eneste træk til sidst, hvilket, du som tidligere medlem af Skaknævnet også godt ved, ikke er lovligt jvf. reglernes §12.6.

I ktp er dette særdeles skærpende, da det koster tid (min. 2 sekunder), hvilket min modstander også godt vidste...

Og det er specielt det, som jeg er sur over!
Da jeg sendte ham en kopi af reglerne, fik jeg at vide, at kunne spise mig en tudekiks, samt at jeg er en paragrafrytter og kedelig at høre på.

Jeg synes simpelthen ikke, at en sådan opførsel hører hjemme her i eskak!?

Et andet eksempel:
En anden spiller nægter konsekvent at hilse før et parti, samt nægter konsekvent at sige tak for spillet efterfølgende.
Det er selvfølgelig ikke tvunget, men hører efter min mening nu alligevel til de uskrevne regler.
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 9:54    Emne: Besvar, med citat

BillyBudd skrev:
Denne side adresserer problemet på bedste måde: www.kinagrill.dk

Man kan altså ikke brokke sig over at modstanderen spiller på tiden i lynskak...


Jo, hvis modstanderen udnytter, at remistilbud koster tid...!!!
Så er det direkte usportsligt!
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 10:01    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Kunne man programmere det sådan, at hvert remistilbud gav 10 sekunder ekstra til modstanderen? Så holder "Chikane"-tilbudene sikkert hurtig op, og man får lige et par sekunder til at overveje modstanderens tilbud.
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 10:02    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Thomas Vestergård skrev:
Kunne man programmere det sådan, at hvert remistilbud gav 10 sekunder ekstra til modstanderen? Så holder "Chikane"-tilbudene sikkert hurtig op, og man får lige et par sekunder til at overveje modstanderens tilbud.


Det har Brian netop implementeret!! Laughing Very Happy

http://eskak.dk/BB/viewtopic.php?t=571

Men jeg synes bare, at det er træls, at der skal den slags til, for at forhindre chikane...?!

Hvorfor kan folk ikke af sig selv opføre sig anstændigt?
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 10:32    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Allan Rasmussen skrev:

Til gengæld har jeg intet problem med at en spiller inviterer til partier med en bestemt farve (og det værende den samme hver gang), jeg lader bare være med at acceptere den slags indbydelser, med mindre det er modsat af hvad jeg lige har haft mod en...


Men er følgende statistik for en enkelt spiller ikke interessant:

1220 hvide partier og 429 sorte partier...
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 11:31    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Nu kan jeg ikke lade være med at blande mig:

Michael D. F. Sørensen skrev:
I alle tre partier spillede modstanderen bevidst på tiden i for dem ellers klart tabte stillinger...


Det er ikke forbudt at kæmpe til sidste bloddråbe. Du har ikke krav på at modstanderen giver op fordi du står til gevinst. Jeg har spillet partierne igennem, og jeg kan heller ikke se at modstanderne decideret skulle spille på tiden, på nær det sidste parti, hvor han rykker lidt planløst frem og tilbage i en remisstilling indtil han spiller 78.Le8, der ganske rigtigt taber til 78.-Txe8 79.e7 Kf7+ mat.
Havde det nu været dig, der havde tilbudt remis, og han bare rykkede planløst frem og tilbage, så kunne du med god ret sige at han spiller på tiden, men så længe at du spiller på gevinst, så må din modstander trække hvad han vil uden at kunne anklages for usportslig optræden.

Michael D. F. Sørensen skrev:
..... som jeg også tydeligt skrev, tilbød min modstander remis ved stort set hvert eneste træk til sidst, hvilket, du som tidligere medlem af Skaknævnet også godt ved, ikke er lovligt jvf. reglernes §12.6.

I ktp er dette særdeles skærpende, da det koster tid (min. 2 sekunder), hvilket min modstander også godt vidste...

Og det er specielt det, som jeg er sur over!
Da jeg sendte ham en kopi af reglerne, fik jeg at vide, at kunne spise mig en tudekiks, samt at jeg er en paragrafrytter og kedelig at høre på.

Jeg synes simpelthen ikke, at en sådan opførsel hører hjemme her i eskak!?


Her forstår jeg til gengæld godt at du er sur. Gentagne remistilbud er usportslig optræden, men det skulle der nu være sat en effektiv stopper for med de seneste ændringer.

Michael D. F. Sørensen skrev:
Men er følgende statistik for en enkelt spiller ikke interessant:

1220 hvide partier og 429 sorte partier...


Jo, interessant, men den eneste måde at vi kan ændre på det er at lade være med at tage imod udfordringer, hvor farven er bestemt på forhånd. Ignorer udfordringen og opret i stedet en tilsvarede udfordring med lodtrækning om farverne.

Michael D. F. Sørensen skrev:
Et andet eksempel:
En anden spiller nægter konsekvent at hilse før et parti, samt nægter konsekvent at sige tak for spillet efterfølgende.
Det er selvfølgelig ikke tvunget, men hører efter min mening nu alligevel til de uskrevne regler.


Ja, det kan da også irritere mig en smule når folk ikke gider at hilse og sige tak for spillet. Det er en del af skakspillet uanset om man mødes ved skakbrættet eller via nettet. Jeg gider dog ikke blackliste nogen pga. dette. Jeg vil hellere koncentrere mig lidt ekstra om at vinde over netop denne person.
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 12:59    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Ups! Jeg havde ikke set matten, Michael. Embarassed

Men det havde din modstander måske heller ikke, og jeg er i øvrigt helt enig med Thomas i at du, så længe du selv spiller på gevinst, da ikke på nogen måde kan klandre modstanderen for at trække planløst og spille på tiden - det er da lidt for latterligt!

Du har naturligvis ret i at han ikke må tilbyde remis gentagne gange, og når jeg ikke kommenterede det, var det fordi jeg synes, det falder uden for trådens emne: Jeg ser denne tråd som et oplæg til diskussion af, hvor grænserne bør gå for, hvad man kan tillade sig. Gentagne remistilbud er der vel ingen grund til at diskutere, da det simpelthen er forbudt.

Jeg synes, det er glimrende, at modstanderen nu får lidt ekstra tid ved remistilbud! Men man kunne måske overveje at indlægge en funktion, der simpelthen umuliggør gentagne remistilbud?

F.eks: Når en spiller én gang har tilbudt remis, og modstanderen har afslået, kan spilleren ikke tilbyde remis igen, før der enten er slået en brik eller flyttet en bonde - eller før han selv har afslået et remistilbud.

Jeg forstår for resten godt, du er sur over hans bemærkninger om, at du er en kedelig paragrafrytter. Du burde måske have svaret ham: "Kedelig §-rytter? MIG?? - Så skulle du bare prøve at spille mod ham Lau!"

Men den slags uvenlige bemærkninger er jo noget folk kun tillader sig, fordi de ikke skal se modstanderen i øjnene - i nærskak ville de samme små drenge (i hvert fald åndeligt små) helt sikkert ikke vove at opføre sig så dårligt! Og det samme gælder nok i mange tilfælde det med ikke at hilse ved partiets start osv.

Men det er jo svært at gøre noget effektivt ved, så man må nok bare 1) holde sin egen sti ren, og 2) beskytte sig som man nu bedst kan - i grove tilfælde indberetter man til Brian, og i mindre grove tilfælde må man jo bare afgøre med sig selv, om man gider spille mod denne modstander igen; at forsøge at opdrage den slags fjolser, når man kun har internettet som kommunikationskanal, vil uvægerligt være skønne, spildte kræfter.

Så måske er blacklistning alligevel ikke nogen helt dårlig ting at have som mulighed? (Sagde jeg virkelig det???)
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Lau Bjerno



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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 13:08    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Min holdning er at på eskak bør man til enhver tid opføre sig lige så pænt og høfligt, som man ville gøre i nærskak!
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 20:39    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Lau Bjerno skrev:
Min holdning er at på eskak bør man til enhver tid opføre sig lige så pænt og høfligt, som man ville gøre i nærskak!


Og det er desværre et udbredt fænomen, ikke blot i eskak, men mange andre steder på nettet, bl.a. fordi man ikke skal se folk i øjnene, som du selv skriver, og fordi mange bruger pseudonymer, som de gemmer sig bag etc.

Samme problem, som man ofte ser i trafikken, hvor folk opfører sig som nogle idioter, hvilket de tillader sig, fordi de måske ved, at de alligevel ikke møder de andre trafikanter lige sådan igen...?

Jeg tror, det er et generelt problem, når man ikke er en del af et forpligtende fællesskab?

Men derfor er mit håb/appel, at vi jo her i eskak alligevel mødes i et fællesskab, hvor vi binder os op på visse etiske spilleregler.
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IndlægSkrevet: Man aug 14, 2006 20:57    Emne: Besvar, med citat

Det ville være godt, hvis alle bare var gode sportsmænd med et glimt i øjet.

Det er så ikke tilfældet, så der må desværre regler og "automatik" til. Dette burde kunne tage det værste mht. usportslig opførelse og selvfølgelig direkte regelbrud.

De forhåbentligt få tilfælde, der så falder uden for, har jeg stor tiltro til Brian om, at han "fikser" på bedste vis.

Hvis en eller flere af urangsaglige årsager kun vil spille hvid eller mest hvid, er det vel næppe et større problem for os andre, da vi kan sige pænt nej tak. Sjovt nok, er der næppe nogen der vil brokke sig over en, der kun oprettede sig som sort ...

Langt de fleste er jo søde, sjove (og desværre alt for gode skakspillere Wink ) ... de få knaster i træværket, skal nok blive slebet ned med tiden.
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